For those of you who do not read UmpBump: they like neither the Yankees nor research.
via Sarah Green (who I believe also contributes Red Sox fluff to the Boston Metro)
Last year, the Yankees managed to bash their way into the postseason despite lackluster starting pitching and an average age of fifty-seven years and three months.Comedy through straight-forward hyperbole. You do not mess with a formula like that.
I hate this. I think BP did this too. The Yankees are always singled out as having an aging roster. It's just not true. Well, I mean, it is true that they're aging. But I think all the teams are doing that.
Let's compare to, I don't know, the World Champion ScrapDog BabyFace Mulligans:
Average age for position player on NYY (2007): 31
Average age for position player on BOS (2007): 30.444
Average age for SP on NYY (2007): 33
Average age for SP on BOS (2007): 33.4
Average age for SP on NYY (2008 [assuming Pettite,Wang,Mussina,Kennedy,Hughes,Chamberlain]: 28.3
Average age for SP on BOS (2008 [assuming Beckett,Matsuzaka,Schilling,Wakefield,Bukholz,Lester]): 30.6
In the Northeast, where we’re all overachieving Alpha-people who walk fast, talk faster, and expect nothing less than perfection from our sports teams, this is unacceptable. It’s especially unacceptable when you’re the most expensive team in baseball year after year by a margin of about fifty million bucks, or roughly the payroll of the Arizona Diamondbacks.
A Red Sox fan crying poverty? I never thought I'd live to see the day.
Cano will be one of just two every day players still in his twenties. Can the Yankees really expect such a roster to stay healthy into October? On some level, the Injury Bug is a capricious insect that attacks at random, like when your catcher breaks his elbow going after a foul pop. But when your team consists of thirtysomethings, I think you have to expect a certain amount of oblique strains, groin pulls, and hamstring tweaks.
Everyday twentysomethings on NYY: 2
Everday twentysomethings on BOS: 3
One of those three is Coco Crisp who, by all rights, shouldn't be allowed to touch a bat. But if you don't have three twentysomethings then you may as well mummify your team.
The Yankees will hold tryouts of sorts for the 1B spot during Spring Training. The contenders: Morgan Ensberg (32 years old, .230 avg, 12 HR), Wilson Betemit (29 years old, .229 avg, 14 HR), Shelley Duncan (28 years old, .258 avg, 7 HR) and Jason Lane (31 years old, .175 avg, 8 HR). None of these guys is very inspiring. Lane and Ensberg have five games at first base between them. Shelley Duncan has nine. Wilson Betemit? The leader at fourteen. Not that first base is known for being a defensively challenging position, by any means. But that is some pretty slim pickings, and of the bunch, only Ensberg has a career OBP of more than .350.
"I'll just go ahead and cherry-pick some stats here... ok... set an arbitrary OBP mark... click Publish... and I'm a genius."
Morgan Ensberg's career line against LHP: .284/.406/.530
I'd be all for Ensberg platooning with Giambi or Matsui.
Ok, so if by Sarah's standards the Yankee's needed to get better starters and get younger this offseason then I expect that they did that. We're adding three very young pitching prospects who looked very good last season. Ok, cool. I expect a B+ or an A. I mean, the Red Sox got an A and they didn't fix the Lugo situation or trade Coco like they wanted to. Ok, we're set. Here comes the A.
Grade: C
Oh. Wow. Well maybe UmpBump just has really high standards. I'll check the other grades.
February 4 - Yankees, C
February 1 - A’s, B+
January 31 - White Sox, B-
January 30 - Rays, B
January 24 - Diamondbacks, A-
January 23 - San Diego Padres, C+
January 22 - Atlanta Braves, B
January 21 - Boston Red Sox, A
Oh. Well... what?
And just for good measure, she waaaaaaaahs the poverty siren again:
The Yankees have financial resources even other big market teams—the Red Sox, the Angels, the Mets, the White Sox, the Dodgers—can only dream of.
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8 comments:
The thing is she never said the Yankees were terribly older than the Red Sox, she just said they were old. And although her comments aren't especially enlightening, the Yankees are relatively old.
Here is a list of 2007 AL teams from youngest to oldest including every position player who logged a game at the ML level.
Position
1. Angels – Avg. Age: 26 (24 Players)
2. Rays – Avg. Age: 26.8 (22 Players)
3. Mariners – Avg. Age: 28 (21 Players)
4. Indians – Avg. Age: 28.1 (20 Players)
5. Blue Jays – Avg. Age: 28.2 (23 Players)
6. Athletics – Avg. Age: 28.4 (30 Players)
Royals – (22 Players)
7. White Sox – Avg. Age: 28.5 (22 Players)
Rangers – (25 Players)
8. Twins – Avg. Age: 28.7 (23 Players)
9. Tigers – Avg. Age: 29.4 (19 Players)
10. Red Sox – Avg. Age: 29.5 (20 Players)
Orioles – (22 Players)
11. Yankees – Avg. Age: 29.6 (21 Players)
AL Avg.: 28.4
Here is a list of 2007 AL teams from youngest to oldest including every pitcher who logged an inning at the ML level.
Pitchers
1. Rays – Avg. Age: 26.9 (24 Pitchers)
Athletics – (24 Pitchers)
2. Royals – Avg. Age: 27.1 (23 Pitchers)
3. Blue Jays – Avg. Age: 27.3 (23 Pitchers)
4. Twins – Avg. Age: 27.4 (19 Pitchers)
5. White Sox – Avg. Age: 27.7 (21 Pitchers)
Rangers – (25 Pitchers)
6. Mariners – Avg. Age: 28.1 (23 Pitchers)
7. Angels – Avg. Age: 28.4 (18 Pitchers)
8. Tigers – Avg. Age: 28.5 (25 Pitchers)
9. Orioles – Avg. Age: 29 (27 Pitchers)
Indians – (21 Pitchers)
10. Red Sox – Avg. Age: 31.1 (20 Pitchers)
11. Yankees – Avg. Age: 31.4 (28 Pitchers)
AL Avg.: 28.3
If you break it down to guys who logged a significant amount of time at the ML level the lists change, but not by much. The Yankees are still at the bottom.
2007 Position Players Logging 81+ Games, 10 Players Per-Team*
1. Royals – Avg. Age: 27.7
2. Rays – Avg. Age: 27.8
Indians
3. Twins – Avg. Age: 28.7
Angels* (9 players with 81+ Games)
4. Athletics – Avg. Age: 29.5* (11 players with 81+ Games)
5. Mariners – Avg. Age: 29.9* (11 players with 81+ Games)
6. White Sox – Avg. Age: 30.3
Red Sox* (11 players with 81+ Games)
7. Orioles – Avg. Age: 30.5
8. Blue Jays – Avg. Age: 30.8
Rangers
9. Yankees – Avg. Age: 31.1* (9 players with 81+ Games)
10. Tigers – Avg. Age: 31.6
AL Avg.: 29.7
2007 Starting Pitchers with 10+ Games Started, 6 Pitchers Per-Team*
1. Rays – Avg. Age: 25.3* (8 Pitchers with 10+ Starts)
2. Athletics – Avg. Age: 25.7
3. Royals – Avg. Age: 26
4. Twins – Avg. Age: 26.6* (7 Pitchers with 10+ Starts)
5. Rangers – Avg. Age: 26.8* (5 Pitchers with 10+ Starts)
6. Blue Jays – Avg. Age: 27.6* (7 Pitchers with 10+ Starts)
7. Indians – Avg. Age: 27.7
White Sox
8. Angels – Avg. Age: 27.8
9. Tigers – Avg. Age: 28.4* (7 Pitchers with 10+ Starts)
10. Orioles – Avg. Age: 28.8* (5 Pitchers with 10+ Starts)
Mariners
11. Red Sox – Avg. Age: 31.6
12. Yankees – Avg. Age: 32
AL Avg.: 27.9
2007 Relief Pitchers with 40+ IP, 6 Pitchers Per-Team*
1. Mariners – Avg. Age: 26.4*(5 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
2. White Sox – Avg. Age: 27* (4 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
3. Blue Jays – Avg. Age: 27.5
4. Rangers – Avg. Age: 27.6* (8 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
5. Royals – Avg. Age: 28* (7 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
6. Athletics – Avg. Age: 28.2
7. Twins – Avg. Age: 28.5* (4 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
8. Angels – Avg. Age: 29.7
9. Indians – Avg. Age: 29.8* (4 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
10. Orioles – Avg. Age: 30
11. Red Sox – Avg. Age: 30.1
12. Rays – Avg. Age: 30.2
13. Tigers – Avg. Age: 31
14. Yankees – Avg. Age: 33* (7 Pitchers with 40+ IP)
AL Avg.: 29.1
What is probably the most interesting about these numbers is that they clearly don't matter as far as wins are concerned. Winning and losing teams are peppered on both ends of the spectrum.
I will agree that next year should be a much "younger" year for the Yanks, what with Joba, Kennedy, Hughes, Ohlendorf and Ramirez coming up and guys like Jackson, Horne, Marquez and Gardner getting close. Not to mention the fact that 44 year old Roger Clemens won't be around to skew the averages.
Still, I'm not sure how high they will climb on these lists as a result of that, especially considering that most of the position players - save Melky and Cano - are in their 30's.
But the real answer to the question is "who cares?" The average age of the team won't determine how well they play.
Well, yea...
My point was that the Red Sox just won the World Series with an old team.
Plus, a young team could just mean that you're too poor to afford free market players and you're pretty much just a farm market team that can't retain non-cost-controlled players.
Well, that wasn't really made clear. I think the sentences "The Yankees are always singled out as having an aging roster. It's just not true.," would throw anyone off. And referring to the BoSox as "BabyFace[d]" makes it seem like people think of the Red Sox as a young team.
Add that to the fact that there is never a sentence like "It doesn't matter how old teams are, just look at the Red Sox. They're only slightly younger than the Yankees and they just won the World Series.," and it all just seems like a way to shit all over the Red Sox and Red Sox fans. I know that's important and all, but it's hard to draw other, more macro conclusions from it.
I also feel the need to point out that one of the two Yankee twentysomethings is Melky Cabrera who posted a .273/.327/.391 line last year. Compared with the .268/.330/.382 that Crisp hit, I would say that Melky is dangerously close to not being "allowed to touch a bat" either.
Crisp also stole 28 bases and is for the most part a superior fielder. Point is that if we're going to start cancelling out twentysomethings for not performing to your standards than I think the tally stands at:
Yankees: Cano
Red Sox: Pedroia, Youklis, (and by next year) Ellsbury
Well, that wasn't really made clear. I think the sentences "The Yankees are always singled out as having an aging roster. It's just not true.," would throw anyone off. And referring to the BoSox as "BabyFace[d]" makes it seem like people think of the Red Sox as a young team.
The Yankees's collective age isn't necessarily detrimental to the team because they're just as old as the World Champion team.
The concept that they're a team of geriatrics is stupid.
Add that to the fact that there is never a sentence like "It doesn't matter how old teams are, just look at the Red Sox. They're only slightly younger than the Yankees and they just won the World Series.," and it all just seems like a way to shit all over the Red Sox and Red Sox fans. I know that's important and all, but it's hard to draw other, more macro conclusions from it.
She called them too old so I compared their age to the World Champion team. Thought that kind of explained itself.
I also feel the need to point out that one of the two Yankee twentysomethings is Melky Cabrera who posted a .273/.327/.391 line last year. Compared with the .268/.330/.382 that Crisp hit, I would say that Melky is dangerously close to not being "allowed to touch a bat" either.
Melky's 23 and show's some promise for power and patience development. Coco's as good as he's going to get.
Crisp also stole 28 bases and is for the most part a superior fielder. Point is that if we're going to start cancelling out twentysomethings for not performing to your standards than I think the tally stands at:
Yankees: Cano
Red Sox: Pedroia, Youklis, (and by next year) Ellsbury
The Yankees also might have Juan Miranda or Shelley Duncan putting in some time at first. That's not going to get them into the playoffs.
My point wasn't that he doesn't count as a baseball player but that young doesn't mean good.
No one has accused The Yankees of being a team full of geriatrics. All she said was that they're old and therefore more injury prone. She never said that those older players aren't any good, well at least not the everyday players. Although the position that a relatively older team is more injury prone is arguable, the fact remains that The Yankees are relatively the oldest team in the AL.
She did call them old, but she never compared them to the Red Sox, she just said they were old and again, relatively, they are. You compared them to the Red Sox and initially it seemed like that was done just to show a Red Sox fan how stupid they are. Any point being made that age doesn't matter was made after my first post.
I actually like Melky Cabrera. Primarily because everyone in NY shit all over him in 2006 and he still managed to put together a prety good season. However, he's never shown much in the way of power or plate discipline in the minors. He could certainly get better, but the jury is definitely still out on how much better.
No one has accused The Yankees of being a team full of geriatrics. All she said was that they're old and therefore more injury prone. She never said that those older players aren't any good, well at least not the everyday players. Although the position that a relatively older team is more injury prone is arguable, the fact remains that The Yankees are relatively the oldest team in the AL.
Geriatric means old with a connotation of being decrepit which I'm pretty sure was the intent.
She did call them old, but she never compared them to the Red Sox, she just said they were old and again, relatively, they are. You compared them to the Red Sox and initially it seemed like that was done just to show a Red Sox fan how stupid they are. Any point being made that age doesn't matter was made after my first post.
I compared them to the Red Sox because she gave them an A rating and because they won the world series. I can't keep saying this over and over again.
This point was made in the first post. The Yankees team is almost the same age as the world champion team.
I actually like Melky Cabrera. Primarily because everyone in NY shit all over him in 2006 and he still managed to put together a prety good season. However, he's never shown much in the way of power or plate discipline in the minors. He could certainly get better, but the jury is definitely still out on how much better.
Everyone loved Melky in '06. They were down on him in '05 for giving up an in-the-parker in Fenway.
Not to doubt your scouting skills but my comment on Melky's room for improvement was based on what I've heard from scouts and analysis of his swing.
As usual, this is getting annoying.
I really don't think that anyone has ever accused The Yankees of being geriatric. The person who wrote the article accused them of being relatively old - which they are - and as a result prone to injury - which they may or may not be. Injury prone as a result of relative aged-ness in baseball and being a candidate for the geriatric ward of a hospital are two very, very different things.
A better argument would have been made by evaluating which Yankees went on the DL last season and what injuries put them there, but hey, we can't expect miracles.
Again, if you chose to compare the age of The Yankees and Red Sox because of this rating and to make a point that age doesn't matter, fine, but that wasn't really made clear in your initial post for reasons I've already stated.
"Everyone loved Melky in '06. They were down on him in '05 for giving up an in-the-parker in Fenway."
That's the second time I've attempted to say soemthing nice about your stupid team only to have you throw it back in my face. Thanks though, it's been a while since I was reminded why I hate the Yankees and their fans.
Also, my comment about Melky was admittedly anecdotal but there was some buzz from Yankee Universe that he was a sucky outfielder who didn't deserve a shot at the big league level in '06. We actually spoke about this. But if you want to change that story now, that's cool with me.
I said that Melky "could certainly get better." That's a compliment, just so you know. Just because someone else says something doesn't mean its meant to be condescending or argumentative.
My only follow-up to the contrary was based on his minor league stats. That's it. Stats. Stuff that's happened. I'm sure the bull sesssions you have with these scouts are fantastic, but that really doesn't change my only point that the guy never showed much power or plate discipline in the minors or 2 seasons of pro-ball.
Why do I have to disprove: Old -> injury -> losing
When I can just show: Old -> winning
and call it a day?
Are you even arguing anything I say in the article or are you just nitpicking synonyms for the word "old".
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